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nlpdave
Post subject: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 14:57 on 28th Jan 2012

Joined: 10:10 on 5th Jun 2009
Posts: 8
This was not a game in which one would want to bat last. With a pitch offering extreme assistance to 90kmph spinners almost any test twirler in the world would have been a real handful. Not so much brilliant bowling but a tricky pitch. Change the toss and one could easily have changed the result.
That's not to excuse some poor performances with the bat and that some batters, Morgan in particular just aren't good enough at test level.
As long as the ICC persist with this ridiculous and unenforceable 15 degree rule which allows the slowies to throw and brings in the 'other one' which is near impossible to bowl within the laws of cricket England may need to resort to people with a similar ability if they are to prosper in the subcontinent. An unconsidered consequence of fiddling with the rules in this way is the potential death of the leg spinner which remains the only lawful way to bowl a wrongun. Why bother to master the leg spinning art when a better and more accurate result can be achieved with a throwing off spin action?
However, if all nations pursued the chucking techniques keep one eye on the ICC for a turnaround in their attemps to politicise the game to Asian advantage.
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Maidenover
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 16:29 on 28th Jan 2012

Joined: 09:13 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 2913
nlpdave Wrote:
An unconsidered consequence of fiddling with the rules in this way is the potential death of the leg spinner which remains the only lawful way to bowl a wrongun. Why bother to master the leg spinning art when a better and more accurate result can be achieved with a throwing off spin action?
Disagree with this, especially as our slow left arm (left handed leg spin?) and their slow left arm, each took 6 wickets in the relevant second innings, and were more influential on the result therefore?
nlpdave Wrote:
This was not a game in which one would want to bat last ...
That's not to excuse some poor performances with the bat ...
Think your other argument tried to though ... :roll:
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nlpdave
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 18:03 on 28th Jan 2012

Joined: 10:10 on 5th Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Well I did also make the point that on this pitch I think any test spinner would have been difficult, who picks up the wickets when there is so much help for all the spinners does not necessarily correlate with how well they bowled. In fact all the spinners in the match bowled very well and the Pakistan batsmen also struggled.
If you don't think the 15 degree flexing and the consequent ability to bowl a doosra because of it increases the effectiveness of a bowler, why then did the ICC go to so much trouble to allow it?
It may not be common knowledge but throwing remains unlawful in the rules of cricket and is not allowed in any other form of the game other than internationals. It is also unenforcable and umpires receive no guidance or training in detecting a flex that might be marginally greater than 15 degrees. If it makes no difference then why?
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Maidenover
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 19:42 on 28th Jan 2012

Joined: 09:13 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 2913
I think you are raising many points, but it's our inability to play spin which lost us this game, and as much as anything the lack of a good plan on how we were going to get to 145 today in our second innings, and which batsmen were most suitable to play a passive or aggressive game in achieving that plan.

It just appears that some of our players study (beforehand and during actually batting) the bowler and his various actions and others don't, and it's this inability to 'study' or it could be argued concentrate each ball is why some like Prior are better 'pickers' than others.

It's up to those in charge of the game to sort out what is allowed and what isn't, but in this particular case I think the 'problem' of Ajmal is being over-stated. If Alex Loudon didn't decide to give up and get a job in the City we might be looking at this from a different angle. As regards the bowling of mystery deliveries (googlies, doosras, whatever) I'm sure most of us are aware that when a 'conventional' leg spinner bowls his googly, he bowls with a lower arm and the position and sighting of the back of the hand or otherwise is also something that can be 'picked'. This applies to Ajmal, and his hand position is different depending whether he is delivering his off-spinner or the 'other one'.

Ultimately, it should be possible, using the camera-type technology available these days, to analyse and coach and ultimately play spin far better than we did today and play to a plan. The point I was making that we couldn't play the conventional as well as the unconventional spinners, and that it was the conventional slow left armers who were most effective in the second innings.
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nlpdave
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 00:03 on 29th Jan 2012

Joined: 10:10 on 5th Jun 2009
Posts: 8
You do make a valid point about England's performances in the sub continent in general and it is a real weakness, not least because of a rigidity in selection which gives the appearance of us being frightened to change from a winning formula even if the balance of the team isnt right. As for the batters I'm not sure we have many better ones to choose from but we do know who to drop (Morgan). Not just because of low scores but because his technique incorporates too much extravagant and unnecessary movement before release and he needs to correct this outside match conditions.
However, in this game when we batted was the most influential feature. Neither side mastered the bowling and I'm not sure that any current test side in the world would have done much better on thisi fourth day against this attack.
Bowling with the throwing action adds two major benefits. Firstly it is much easier to be consistently accurate. To check this try playing darts with a straight arm. Secondly it brings in the doosra with an off spin action and because of that is much harder to pick. Not necessarily impossible and I agree that our batters havent done that very well even with all their backup facilities but they did it much better than the first game. However, let's not disregard the very helpful pitch here which exhibited rapid spin at pace and very inconsistent bounce, truly a trial for anyone.
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syd1967
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 15:50 on 29th Jan 2012

Joined: 23:46 on 5th Jan 2012
Posts: 37
Think Pakistan were only fortunate in facing our out of form batsman on a surface they really struggle to score on!!

Lets be honest Pakistan totally deserved their win thier spinners are better than ours and thier batsman are better players of spin than our batsman. It does not make them a better all round cricket team but it does make them a more likely victor on these pitches just as we are more likely to win in conditions that face us.

England became world number one without beating anyone on the sub continent. Im not knocking the achievement but it has to be put into perspective.

Unless something changes England will do well at home and hopefully in SA, Oz NZ and the West Indies but struggle elsewhere (except Bangladesh) just as these teams will struggle on thier tours when we will tend to labour them poor travelers, bottlers and laugth at them having to wear 2 jumpers at lords in June!!

Maybe its just one of those things like tennis players only the really great players will win on all surfaces... England are a very good team but they are not a great one.

Hope does not sound negative ... Just trying to be realistic..
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bishbash
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 15:39 on 30th Jan 2012

Joined: 12:03 on 4th Jul 2011
Posts: 512
My twopenneth…

I’m generally positive about England, don’t see the point in being anything else, though of course you have to be realistic, I don’t see any point in going down the “oh we’re no good, bloody useless England, I give up etc” attitude â€" not the spirit that won the war. Two nil down with one to play. Nothing to lose (we remain world number one if we lose three zip) so hopefully they’ll play more freely instead of getting stuck in a rut against their spinners. I’m confident in the four bowlers picked for the last test and presumably we’ll stick with them, unless we get an absolute road I see Pakistan struggling to get to 300 or even 250 against our attack.

We did get to number one without beating pak/india/sl away, but then we didn’t play them away either. Just the way it goes sometimes, this was our first test out there in 3 years (and first test of any description in 5 months) so was slightly inevitable we’d be a bit ring rusty and hence we got a proper lesson in the first test. The second test we fought admirably but threw it away in an appalling fourth innings performance with the bat, but even at 72-5 we had a chance, but somehow contrived to lose 5 wickets in about 12 balls for a couple of runs or so. If we’d taken a few of those first innings catches 72 might’ve been enough. It was so disappointing and a real crying shame that we’ve thrown away our 3 year (almost) unbeaten record, but we move on.

Of course there is no denying that at least 4 of our top 6 look pretty much clueless in these conditions, but great or even v.good teams (and batsmen) have to learn to adapt and who’s to say they won’t. This series is arguably the hardest of the year and we have to start learning. A win in the final test would mean that we can leave with some optimism and that the tour will not have been an out and out disaster â€" with the world rankings system there is no such thing as a dead rubber, so we had better be taking this test seriously. You never know how the extra points gained might help us keep the no1 position when otherwise it’d’ve been lost. Personally I take the number 1 ranking v.seriously and I suspect the players do too, regardless of what they say in interviews. We will hopefully learn and improve more against the weaker SL team followed by a solid home summer we can go to India with 5 tests in the subcontinent behind us in which we’ve learned and adapted and we can beat an Indian team on their own turf for the first time in 26 years. This can still be a great year for English cricket. Sport is so much about confidence and it is vitally important we regain some of it in this final test match.

Well done to Pakistan, you deserve your win, but let us not be downhearted â€" we are world number 1 and Ashes holders. I wish I could get a job of giving the England team talks.
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addtamx
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 21:18 on 30th Jan 2012

Joined: 21:02 on 9th May 2008
Posts: 934
Location: Australia
Some very good points made by all in this thread.

England are a very good cricket side, but they are far from a great cricket side. A great cricket side can find a way to win in all conditions, until England can crack this subcontinent nut they can not be considered "great"

But that doesn't mean they are not worthy No1's. They've been the best performers over the past 2 years and thoroughly deserve the No1 rank......this disappointing loss doesn't change that. There just isn't a great side out there atm.

I agree with bishbash, a strong performance and a win in the last test will mean we can take some positives out of this series. We'll have learnt a lot and will be better prepared for Sri Lanka and then India.

I think the timing of these 3 tours is perfect for us.
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Big Harvey
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 07:01 on 31st Jan 2012

Joined: 09:14 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 2317
nlpdave Wrote:
This was not a game in which one would want to bat last. With a pitch offering extreme assistance to 90kmph spinners almost any test twirler in the world would have been a real handful. Not so much brilliant bowling but a tricky pitch. Change the toss and one could easily have changed the result.
That's not to excuse some poor performances with the bat and that some batters, Morgan in particular just aren't good enough at test level.
As long as the ICC persist with this ridiculous and unenforceable 15 degree rule which allows the slowies to throw and brings in the 'other one' which is near impossible to bowl within the laws of cricket England may need to resort to people with a similar ability if they are to prosper in the subcontinent. An unconsidered consequence of fiddling with the rules in this way is the potential death of the leg spinner which remains the only lawful way to bowl a wrongun. Why bother to master the leg spinning art when a better and more accurate result can be achieved with a throwing off spin action?
However, if all nations pursued the chucking techniques keep one eye on the ICC for a turnaround in their attemps to politicise the game to Asian advantage.


I actually agree with the 15 degree rule. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It should not be forgotten that it's not only Asian countries who have produced bowlers with suspect bowling actions. The Australians in the 50's were notorious, and don't forget Brett Lee before he modified his action. We've even had one or two of our own over the years. Ever seen footage of Tony Lock, for example? And what about James Kirtley?

At the end of the day, Ajmal's doosra has been examined and found to be within the 15 degrees, so we have to learn to deal with it. And we should be looking to produce doosra bowlers of our own, too. I disagree with the suggestion that it can't be bowled legally. I don't recall anyone questioning the pioneer of the doosra, Saqlain Mushtaq's action. His doosra was delivered without so much as a visible hint of straightening, let alone 15 degrees.

Regarding the supposed death of the leg-spinner, it was only three or four years ago that the death of the off-spinner was being talked about.
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GMH2
Post subject: Re: A fortunate Pakistan?
PostPosted: 14:35 on 31st Jan 2012

Joined: 10:48 on 22nd Aug 2011
Posts: 88
Albeit from the comfort of my armchair (!) ,I genuinely did not feel that that track was that difficult. It was still a fourth day pitch.
In my opinion, we were done by our poor decision making regarding getting back or going forward. We never seem to produce batsmen who are not scared to use their feet to spin .....and I believe at any level of cricket, if you use your feet you should always get the better of the spinners.
Say what you like about the little sh1t but Micheal Clark is superb at this.

Morgan made two movements before the ball had been released !
KP seems to think that a big stride forward will get him out of any situation but good bowlers wise up to it and he is now getting found out.
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