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addtamx
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 04:21 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 21:02 on 9th May 2008
Posts: 964
Location: Australia
Agree with some of that Sam but not necessarily all.

Thought Broad was very good and think he is going to chip in very nicely this series, I've locked him in for at least one Oval 2009 or Lords 2013 type effort in this series.

Swann worried me, apart from a good spell late on day 4 it is a long time since I've seen him throwing down full bungers like that so regularly. I understand the wicket was slow and his record at TB is poor but I did expect more from him on day 5. I'm hoping it was just a bad day at the office and he'll come back firing because we need him too.

Finn was total crap and I think we can all agree on that, but I have softened my stance on him now the dust has settled. His record at Lords is excellent whereas Bres and Onions is very poor there, so I think we've got to keep him in for the next test. Seriously needs to get his confidence back before Thursday though so I hope Flower and Saker are putting in some hard yards with him if he's gonna play.

We can't have Cook in that same position again of having to bowl him but not wanting too because he's leaking runs we can't afford to gift.

There is no getting around the fact though that only Jimmy looked like taking those last 4 wickets......no doubt at all in my mind that if he hadn't have come back after lunch we'd have lost this test.

Don't forget the Aussies have 2 bowlers in their squad that haven't played that would more than likely be walk up starts for our 3rd seamers spot.....they more than have us covered in depth.

If we're all firing I'd say we have the edge because Jimmy is just a class above, if we have a couple underperforming again then they can more than match us.

It's a close call whatever way you look at it IMO.
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samcrewe
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 05:06 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 20:35 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 657
Minus the two star bowling performances from both teams (Anderson and Siddle)

Right now, I would take the international test experience of:

- Broad (58 matches, 198 wickets)
- Swann (53 matches, 226 wickets)
- Finn (23 matches, 56 wickets)
- Bresnan (18 Matches, 57 wickets)
- Onions (9 matches, 32 wickets)
- Tremlett (11 matches, 49 wickets)

over:

- Pattinson (11 matches, 45 wickets)
- Starc (10 matches, 35 wickets)
- Lyon (22 matches, 76 wickets)
- Bird (2 matches, 11 wickets)
- Agar (1 match, 2 wickets)
- Watson (42 matches, 62 wickets)
- Harris (12 matches, 47 wickets)

I have no doubt that Aus will benefit in the long run from blooding these young bowlers, as we did from bringing Broad, Anderson and Finn in from a very early age. But like all three of those bowlers, there is a period of finding yourself in test cricket.

If I am having to choose between those two packs to bowl for me, I know who I would be choosing. As they say, form is temporary....
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addtamx
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 05:45 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 21:02 on 9th May 2008
Posts: 964
Location: Australia
samcrewe Wrote:

If I am having to choose between those two packs to bowl for me, I know who I would be choosing. As they say, form is temporary....


Do you think the Aussie attack would have allowed us to score 163 + 65 for the 10th wicket in the test? Or Tino Best to score 96 at No11 against them??

We're fallible Sam, all firing ours is a very strong attack but it also has weaknesses........I just don't think it is cut and dried that our bowlers are better than theirs. You're right, they are bar Siddle very inexperienced but based on what they have all showed in their careers to date they should not be taken lightly and underestimated.

The biggest advantage our bowlers have is that they get to bowl at their batsmen.
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samcrewe
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 06:16 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 20:35 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 657
addtamx Wrote:
Do you think the Aussie attack would have allowed us to score 163 + 65 for the 10th wicket in the test? Or Tino Best to score 96 at No11 against them??


Those are good examples, as both of them have Steven Finn in common.

I do agree that we have an over-reliance on Anderson. But put it into perspective. Aus did with McGrath, look at the 05' Ashes, we only ever won tests when he wasn't playing. SA have an over-reliance on Steyn. People said we had an over-reliance on Flintoff and that once he retired we would be gonners. Instead, it opened the door for others to stand up.

I just think people are reading too much into that last match. Sure it wasn't a great performance by England. as are most of our first tests in a series, but this is a very good bowling unit. I think that the entire England team has been guilty of taking a number of things for granted since they got to be number 1. Unfortunately it does not seem like the hiding SA & Pakistan gave us changed that. But the core ability is still there.
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peado
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 07:52 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 819
Airliebird9 Wrote:
peado Wrote:
addtamx Wrote:
Don't think we'll be handing them over in this leg though.

Agreed. Can't see them winning 3 of the next 4 tests.


They only need to win 2 of the next 4 ;)

Maybe our arithmetic differs. To regain the Ashes the Aussies have to win the series. With England already 1 nil up, to be certain of winning the series the Aussies will have to win 3 of the next 4 tests. A drawn series 2-2 would leave the Ashes with England the current holders.
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peado
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 08:08 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 819
samcrewe Wrote:
Minus the two star bowling performances from both teams (Anderson and Siddle)

Right now, I would take the international test experience of:

- Broad (58 matches, 198 wickets)
- Swann (53 matches, 226 wickets)
- Finn (23 matches, 56 wickets)
- Bresnan (18 Matches, 57 wickets)
- Onions (9 matches, 32 wickets)
- Tremlett (11 matches, 49 wickets)

over:

- Pattinson (11 matches, 45 wickets)
- Starc (10 matches, 35 wickets)
- Lyon (22 matches, 76 wickets)
- Bird (2 matches, 11 wickets)
- Agar (1 match, 2 wickets)
- Watson (42 matches, 62 wickets)
- Harris (12 matches, 47 wickets)

I have no doubt that Aus will benefit in the long run from blooding these young bowlers, as we did from bringing Broad, Anderson and Finn in from a very early age. But like all three of those bowlers, there is a period of finding yourself in test cricket.

If I am having to choose between those two packs to bowl for me, I know who I would be choosing. As they say, form is temporary....

If you take the two Aussies pace bowlers from the TB test of Pattinson and Starc,, they both average more wickets per match than Broad and Finn. And in my view these two young (both 23) Australian bowlers will get better as the series progresses
Still think England will retain the Ashes, but it will a close run thing.
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samcrewe
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 09:02 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 20:35 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 657
peado Wrote:
samcrewe Wrote:
Minus the two star bowling performances from both teams (Anderson and Siddle)

Right now, I would take the international test experience of:

- Broad (58 matches, 198 wickets)
- Swann (53 matches, 226 wickets)
- Finn (23 matches, 56 wickets)
- Bresnan (18 Matches, 57 wickets)
- Onions (9 matches, 32 wickets)
- Tremlett (11 matches, 49 wickets)

over:

- Pattinson (11 matches, 45 wickets)
- Starc (10 matches, 35 wickets)
- Lyon (22 matches, 76 wickets)
- Bird (2 matches, 11 wickets)
- Agar (1 match, 2 wickets)
- Watson (42 matches, 62 wickets)
- Harris (12 matches, 47 wickets)

I have no doubt that Aus will benefit in the long run from blooding these young bowlers, as we did from bringing Broad, Anderson and Finn in from a very early age. But like all three of those bowlers, there is a period of finding yourself in test cricket.

If I am having to choose between those two packs to bowl for me, I know who I would be choosing. As they say, form is temporary....

If you take the two Aussies pace bowlers from the TB test of Pattinson and Starc,, they both average more wickets per match than Broad and Finn. And in my view these two young (both 23) Australian bowlers will get better as the series progresses
Still think England will retain the Ashes, but it will a close run thing.


True, but then as we all know, that logic does not translate over an entire career. Look at how many wickets Finn took in his first 10 matches versus his last 10 matches. Look at Anderson over the first 30 tests over his last 30 tests. The logic that so long as Starc and Pattinson play 50 tests means they will get 5 times their current haul just very rarely occurs.

We see it all the time, new bowlers (and batsmen) come onto the scene and are touted as the next big thing as they produce great performances only to have a sudden reality check after a period of time (M.Johnson, P.Hughes, D.Warner) to name just a few Aussie examples from the last few years. England experienced the same with Cook & Bopara. Clarke went through that period too. Some players are good enough to fight through that period and become better players for it, others (Johnson) fall to pieces, never to regain their previous status.

My point, well the Aussie attack is still relatively unproven and are yet to face that inevitable hurdle that most test cricketers go through, so until they do, it is a bit premature to be claiming they are better than an attack that has already come out of that period and can claim to have "been there done that".
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 13:51 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2172
Location: Preston UK
All good well reasoned points fella's but we strayed from the main issue. If we are going into a test with only 4 main bowlers, FIRSTLY they must All be fit, not even 95% and cortisoned, 100% fit. Secondly they must be on top of their game, in all facets.
If Broad is fit he plays, no-one would seriously question that.
Is Finn firing as a bowler, palpably no. Is he realistically going to suddenly turn it round in three days practice before Lords, I don't believe so. The arguement about his record at his home ground is only relevant if he is performing, he is'nt and in my view its therefore irrelevant. Since his return from NZ, and arguably whilst there, he has'nt been himself and can't even point to runs scored as a back-up. He needs time to refind his form and noticably his rhythm, and a test and least of all the Ashes series is not the place to do that.

Bresnan. Simple as. (no pun intended)
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bishbash
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 15:36 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 12:03 on 4th Jul 2011
Posts: 521
We have far more scope to improve than them in my opinion.

Have read a few interesting articles suggesting that the dusty conditions didn't in fact help us as many (including me) had hoped. We should win at Lords and 5-0 is still well on.
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peado
Post subject: Re: First Test Victory: The Verdicts Thread :)
PostPosted: 19:21 on 16th Jul 2013

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 819
bishbash Wrote:
We should win at Lords and 5-0 is still well on.

Have you been drinking. 5-0 forget it.
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