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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:25 on 14th Aug 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2182
Location: Preston UK
samcrewe Wrote:
I can't quite believe what I am hearing about the understatement of the effect of the coaches. Just like Cooley did for our attack in 04/05 and later Saker has done with this mob, Gooch has had just as good an impact on his pupils as his bowling counterparts. He certainly had everyone singing from the same songsheet in Aus 3 years ago! Only one batsman didn't make a century in that series (Collingwood). Also in that series, England scored in excess of 500 on no less than 4 times out of a possible 7 innings. It wasn't just one batsman standing up at a time, it was 3 or more per test. These one man test performances in the batting show when you look at the leading run scorers of this series.

We all laugh at the problems facing this Aussie team and Watson probably typifies their problems right now. But at this point in time, he has only scored 2 less runs than Cook. Steve Smith has 6 more than Trott. Haddin, 90 more than Prior.

My view, is that if we don't recognise we have a problem, then we are unlikely to try and fix anything. The bottom line is, batting like we are now, we WILL lose down under, I have no doubt about that. Aus have forgotten how to win, and that shouldn't be understated. However, all four of these tests could have gone very differently but for very short moments of lapses from this Aussie team. We should be seeing the closeness of these games as a warning, instead of basking in the glory of a very hard fought 3-0 lead.

After all, we are not even half way through the task, it is still only 4 tests down from 10


Firstly Sam I note the two examples were bowling coaches and not batting, whereas the MAIN problem here has been inconsistent batting. If the coach is so important/critical, why are we still the same said inconsistent, after 4 tests. surely if coaching test players was critical it would have been resolved.
We probably are'nt gonna agree, and thats fine. I'll just reiterate my initial point, test batsmen need tweaking when its going wrong, usually that tweak is more mental than anything but I will concede sometimes its technical, just not often.

I think the lads out of form will return just as sure as night follows day, the aussies know it and know theres not a lot they can do but bowl well. IF they get it back collectively, then we will retain the Ashes comfortably, in front of half empty grounds. My real concern is where they bat themselves back into form when they play so little outside tests. (Understandably to some extent)
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stonesfan
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 19:05 on 14th Aug 2013

Joined: 23:40 on 9th Feb 2013
Posts: 83
blueandy1mac Wrote:

Sorry mate but I have to disagree to a large extent. At this level there is very little that the coaches can actually achieve, in my opinion. Great/v good players do'nt need any real coaching after their style is formed. Just the nudges and tweaks that are needed when they hit a bad run, but other than that i do'nt think they have a major job at this level, other than deciding which yoghurt flavour to eat next.
If you think about it, if a player is in need of a batting/bowling coach, what the f... is he doing in an international side. Coaching individuals ie tennis players, is mainly for the mental aspects. How many players do we actually see change the way they play ? Apart from the odd golfer meddling with his swing, very few.


Coaches command a high price and if they had such a little effect on the team then surely they wouldn't be employed??

There's a strong irony here when it comes to the current England batting coach. Not sure if anyone here remembers, but do you recall Graham Gooch suffering an absolutely torrid run of form during the 1989 Ashes series? He was a walking wicket and was particularly exploited by Terry Alderman. We're talking about one of Englands finest ever batsman here who was struggling to even look like a number 11 for most of the series. None of the official batting coaches were able to make the fine adjustments to his technique to allow him to recover. I believe he ended up approaching Geoff Boycott and asking for help as he was extremely concerned about his lack of form. No surprise that an obsessive like Sir Geoffrey managed to turn him around and it wasn't long before he was back in the runs again.

I still believe that the top order need some positive coaching influence to drag them out of the mire. We may well have enough batting fire power to overcome the Australians out there, but I want to see getting England back up to number one, not just beating Australia!!
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samcrewe
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 22:02 on 14th Aug 2013

Joined: 20:35 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 657
blueandy1mac Wrote:
Firstly Sam I note the two examples were bowling coaches and not batting, whereas the MAIN problem here has been inconsistent batting. If the coach is so important/critical, why are we still the same said inconsistent, after 4 tests. surely if coaching test players was critical it would have been resolved.


I know the reference I was making, and it was to highlight that just like the bowling coaches, the batting coaches are just as important. Is it purely down to Anderson that suddenly in 2009 after 6 years on the international scene that he suddenly became a world class bowler? Or maybe the result of Gibson and Cooley's fine work at recognising raw talent and fine tuning it?

Likewise, is it purely down to Cook that after 4 years of playing test cricket and on the verge of being dropped from the team that he suddenly became one of the best batsmen in the world? Or maybe it was just a coincidence that Gooch became his batting mentor at about the same time? In fact with Gooch it was clear for all to see, as his terminology of "daddy hundreds" was suddenly becoming a trend for England batsmen.

Your point about why these same coaches have not been able to address the batting slide if they are so important to the process sort of makes my point of this entire thread. I genuinely believe, that like many people on this forum that the batting coaches do not believe there is a problem. Some believe that so long as the end result of the test is fine then there is nothing to worry about. But in my view that is complacent. After the debacle that was the UAE series, the excuses were that it was just that our batsmen had a weakness against spin. But then later in the year we got owned by SA on our own turf. You could see that the coaches clearly did work on the spin weakness, as this translated into a fine batting performance in India. However, that was then followed up with terrible batting slumps against pace attacks in the two NZ series.

...a fine article that sort of sums up my thoughts here

www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/662313.html
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 15:47 on 15th Aug 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2182
Location: Preston UK
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.
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peado
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:04 on 16th Aug 2013

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 823
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t
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peado
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:04 on 16th Aug 2013

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 823
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t
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samcrewe
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 03:43 on 17th Aug 2013

Joined: 20:35 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 657
peado Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t


There's an "h" in Alzheimer's" too

;)
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fernando
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:13 on 17th Aug 2013

Joined: 12:48 on 25th Apr 2008
Posts: 1890
samcrewe Wrote:
peado Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t


There's an "h" in Alzheimer's" too

;)


And it's believe,not beleieve.:):)
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:49 on 17th Aug 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2182
Location: Preston UK
peado Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t


So observant you had to post it twice, heaven forbid anyone makes a typo on a cricket forum. I'll forgive you Rob, you were bound to catch me once in your life ;)
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fernando
Post subject: Re: What's Happened to our Batting?
PostPosted: 12:44 on 18th Aug 2013

Joined: 12:48 on 25th Apr 2008
Posts: 1890
blueandy1mac Wrote:
peado Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
I did say we were unlikely to agree, and that is even plainer to see. I do'nt beleieve we need the level of coaching SEEMINGLY employed at test level, you do. Thats all there is to it.
Intersted by your caveat Sam that the coaches do'nt appear to think theres a problem. Another reason to get shut in my op. Enjoyed the debate, we do'nt get enough on here anymore.

The apostrophe in don't goes between the n and the t


So observant you had to post it twice, heaven forbid anyone makes a typo on a cricket forum. I'll forgive you Rob, you were bound to catch me once in your life ;)


Aye,just the once,Mac.:)
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