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Jonny Trabant
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 10:01 on 31st Dec 2012

Joined: 08:20 on 27th Dec 2012
Posts: 17
addtamx Wrote:
Richard Wrote:
Jonny Trabant Wrote:
But ultimately I would like to see an England team with English and Welsh born players.



As an expat living in Oz I'd love to see any potential employer here try and not give me a job based on my nationality!! Surely that sort of thinking is a thing of the past??

.


But I bet it still goes on, rather like age discrimination here in the UK, but your right and it should be a thing of the past
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peado
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 12:22 on 31st Dec 2012

Joined: 09:29 on 23rd Apr 2008
Posts: 815
blueandy1mac Wrote:
On a more serious note, how good to have a thread with serious debate. we don't do enough of this
.

I could not agree more
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addtamx
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 23:20 on 31st Dec 2012

Joined: 21:02 on 9th May 2008
Posts: 955
Location: Australia
blueandy1mac Wrote:
Morgan for example. Richard, in an otherwise excellently reasoned post places him in a category which I believe to be completely incorrect. He is as much a financial mercenary as KP et al and plays for England despite the real progress the Irish national side has made. Many see him as 'different' to the Saffers and Aussies who have played for us but I fail to see the difference


One could also argue that the difference is that Morgan would have never had the opportunity to play test cricket had he not crossed over......so I wouldn't call that "mercenary" Just a bloke that wants to ply his trade at the highest level.

It's a very subjective debate this, personally my only "issue" comes from players that have played International cricket for one nation and then jump ship, such as Morgan, Nannes, Joyce etc........just doesn't feel right for me. I'd prefer these guy's make a decision early in their career where they are headed and stick with it. But having said that, I can't say I'm overly fussed about it either.
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bishbash
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 16:34 on 2nd Jan 2013

Joined: 12:03 on 4th Jul 2011
Posts: 517
Just a few rambling opinions/observations.

I have my reservations about KP and especially JT being in the squad. I suppose the fact that they are such good players means that
I often put it to the back of my head when they’re helping us win series. The same in rugby, the number of pacific islanders playing
For foreign countries (Japan, England, Aus even bloody Scotland and Wales sometimes) is a bit of a joke and to the detriment of the
Game imo and certainly to the detriment of Fiji/Samoa/Tonga’s competitive aspirations. Strauss and Prior, well they’re fine by me, proper English
Just happened to be born elsewhere, JT just isn’t proper English though I’m afraid. Also no problems with Morgan either. Didn’t ECB recently make the qualifying Period 4 years, off their own back, instead of the 3 yrs as set down by ICC, which suggests we’re not total mercenary.

I think I started a thread on here about D/N tests (I know Boycott is an advocate) and the general opinion was that they were a daft idea. I still haven’t been unconvinced tbh and would like to see them at least tried once. Unlike some of the tinkering with the odi rules it wouldn’t be change for the sake of it but a genuine effort to spread test cricket to the masses, It has to be worth a try somewhere in the world, at least once? T20 not really my cup of cha but if it gets kids interested in the game then I’m all for it on the proviso that they understand Test is best. In Mumbai I actually went to my first ever limited overs game and it was good fun tbh, I can certainly see why an 11yo kid is going to be more interested in that than watching us score at 2/over in Nagpur for 5 days. I can’t decide what the future of Tests will be, I suspect there are only a very small handful of players that do not have any aspiration to play test cricket but just want to be freelance T20 specialists â€" in that sense the players still understand that to be really recognised as a good/great player the real kudos comes with test success â€" so long as that is the case Tests will survive. I mean did tests in subcontinent fill up historically? Nagpur was a big stadium and was a third to half full (I estimate) when I was there, that ain’t so bad for quite an out of the way ground at an out of the way city.
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 17:39 on 2nd Jan 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2150
Location: Preston UK
addtamx Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
Morgan for example. Richard, in an otherwise excellently reasoned post places him in a category which I believe to be completely incorrect. He is as much a financial mercenary as KP et al and plays for England despite the real progress the Irish national side has made. Many see him as 'different' to the Saffers and Aussies who have played for us but I fail to see the difference


One could also argue that the difference is that Morgan would have never had the opportunity to play test cricket had he not crossed over......so I wouldn't call that "mercenary" Just a bloke that wants to ply his trade at the highest level.

It's a very subjective debate this, personally my only "issue" comes from players that have played International cricket for one nation and then jump ship, such as Morgan, Nannes, Joyce etc........just doesn't feel right for me. I'd prefer these guy's make a decision early in their career where they are headed and stick with it. But having said that, I can't say I'm overly fussed about it either.


When you remeber that crickets first ever centurion was an Englishman playing for the Aussies, then you can see the 'problem' has been with us quite a while and will probably be here a while more.
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Richard
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 22:17 on 2nd Jan 2013

Joined: 22:35 on 18th Nov 2008
Posts: 106
blueandy1mac Wrote:
On a more serious note, how good to have a thread with serious debate. we don't do enough of this and I suppose I'm guiltier than most.
I think the issue of selection of 'non' nationals has now been addressed and the solution is acceptable to most. Its strange though how we see things and sometimes contort them to suit ourselves. Morgan for example. Richard, in an otherwise excellently reasoned post places him in a category which I believe to be completely incorrect. He is as much a financial mercenary as KP et al and plays for England despite the real progress the Irish national side has made. Many see him as 'different' to the Saffers and Aussies who have played for us but I fail to see the difference.
However, I totally agree with the sentinments of the rest of you that once he met the criteria for selection he is 'English' and warrants our unambivalent support. We have a long history of allowing opening our doors as a nation, long shall it be thus, with correct supervision.


The difference is that Ireland don't have test status and are most unlikely to be getting it during Morgan's playing career.
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 16:55 on 3rd Jan 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2150
Location: Preston UK
Richard Wrote:
blueandy1mac Wrote:
On a more serious note, how good to have a thread with serious debate. we don't do enough of this and I suppose I'm guiltier than most.
I think the issue of selection of 'non' nationals has now been addressed and the solution is acceptable to most. Its strange though how we see things and sometimes contort them to suit ourselves. Morgan for example. Richard, in an otherwise excellently reasoned post places him in a category which I believe to be completely incorrect. He is as much a financial mercenary as KP et al and plays for England despite the real progress the Irish national side has made. Many see him as 'different' to the Saffers and Aussies who have played for us but I fail to see the difference.
However, I totally agree with the sentinments of the rest of you that once he met the criteria for selection he is 'English' and warrants our unambivalent support. We have a long history of allowing opening our doors as a nation, long shall it be thus, with correct supervision.


The difference is that Ireland don't have test status and are most unlikely to be getting it during Morgan's playing career.


Disagree there Richard, the omens are good as long as they keep going in the right direction. Only my opinion of course.
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Richard
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 23:55 on 3rd Jan 2013

Joined: 22:35 on 18th Nov 2008
Posts: 106
The difference is that Ireland don't have test status and are most unlikely to be getting it during Morgan's playing career.[/quote]

Disagree there Richard, the omens are good as long as they keep going in the right direction. Only my opinion of course.[/quote]

You're right in that the Irish team has improved a hell of a lot over the last ten years - there are several Irish players performing well in county cricket so I'd assess their overall strength to be equivalent to a decent county side. However the ICC would have to vote to give Ireland test status, and given that the ICC attempted to close off the World Cup to the associate nations a couple of years ago I can't see it happening.

It doesn't help that cricket is very much a minority sport in Ireland (a long way behind hurling, Gaelic football, football and rugby) and the country is broke so there won't be big TV deals / gate receipts to help move things along. I have wondered why more teams don't head over there to play a game before / after touring England, and it's probably because it's not financially worthwhile.
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blueandy1mac
Post subject: Re: Thoughts from a first time poster
PostPosted: 16:00 on 4th Jan 2013

Joined: 12:30 on 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 2150
Location: Preston UK
Good and fairly accurate points. I still think with a good lobby campaign and some support (ie from us) they could reach their goal. After all we are'nt exactly over-run with test nations and some diversity would freshen it up.
Not all the test nations need to play each other on a regular basis, although we could manage one-off's against up and comers to provide financial and morale encouragement.
As I said, just my view and ICC seem to lean to your view.
Cheers
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